CYMBAL RE-CREATIONS ! With before and after soundclips !

[blackash]

the job that you've done on that paiste 2002 is just amazing, sounds quite close to my agop signature
well done man

[gobbetto]

Johan is recreating a cymbals of mine (a Zildjian K 20" ride) right now...
I asked him to achieve a 'clicky' and jazzy sound, not too trashy and without any udible 'note' underneath (I do not like this kind of 'single note cymbals', or that kind of 'gongy' cymbals).
I'm absolutely sure that the quality of his work would be better appreciated if the mic he uses for the 'after and before' samples was a good condenser one... He currently uses a very cheap dynamic mic...

Roberto

[Johan VDS]

Clips (and a few pics) of cymbals which I made from cracked cymbals are HERE

[Broadkaster]

Johan is "the" real artisan, I sent him a 22" Zildjian Avedis ride from the 60's and he turned it in a nature's beauty...a superb handcraft work... also he shaped a perfect hi-hat top for my existent Zildjian K Constantinople I stamp bottom (remember Johan?? )... now it is passed almost 1 year, and the cymbals are so great...the sound is improving way better and better..thank you johan!

[Johan VDS]

Thanks Broadkaster !

Here's a little clip of me playing my louder cymbals...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyBcSaQHZDo

[Stephen Daedalus]

I loved every second of that solo, Johan! So much passion and sheer enjoyment. The snare sounds pro and the ripple crash kicks major arse

[Johan VDS]

Thanks Stephen !

[Broadkaster]

I like so much your splashes sounds...the yell bell it's my dream cymbal!

[The Maus]

wow

[Kiakkia]

johan you are the best!!!!
i like so much your cymbals!!!
have you ever make a cymbal only your
(intendo dire dal nulla, prendendo un"pezzo di ferro" e picchiandolo, ma siccome non so l'inglese non so spiegarlo...)
if you don't understand sorry, i hope someone will explain you

[Stephen Daedalus]

Johan, Kiakkia would like to know if you've ever made a cymbal from scratch, i.e. starting from a blank or even just from a sheet of metal (not necessarily bronze, I suppose)

[Kiakkia]

grazie non sono capace di farmi capire

[Johan VDS]

Johan, Kiakkia would like to know if you've ever made a cymbal from scratch, i.e. starting from a blank or even just from a sheet of metal (not necessarily bronze, I suppose)

Yes I have.

But the problem is that the only B20 blanks on the market are Turkish blanks. Turkish bronze isn't very consistent in quality and not always very strong. Turkish bronze is made from old recycled electrical copper wire and the bronze is often very impure and fragile.
I think most of you know that Turkish B20 alloy cymbals break more easily than modern B20 alloy cymbals made by Zildjian, Sabian or Ufip.

But I want to make cymbals that not only sound good, I also want them to be strong and durable ! I do not only make cymbals for jazzdrummers (like Spizzichino) but I also make cymbals for hard hitting rock drummers, so I need a strong alloy !
I think an expensive cymbal should not only sound great, it should also be strong !

But unfortunately, Zildjian, Sabian or Ufip do not sell blanks, they only sell cymbals. So to get the best and strongest quality of B20 bronze, I simply have to buy Zildjian, Sabian or Ufip cymbals. Of course, Zildjian, Sabian or Ufip cymbals are at least 10 times more expensive than Turkish blanks, so my profit on a cymbal is extremely low.

Of course, I will hammer every cymbal that people send to me, but for the cymbals which I sell myself, I mainly use Zildjian, Sabian or Ufips.

Perhaps somebody can translate this ? Thanks.

[Stephen Daedalus]

Ok, traduzione della mezzanotte e verso una lingua che non è la mia prima lingua

Certamente. Il problema è che gli unici piatti grezzi in B20 disponibili sul mercato sono realizzati in Turchia. La qualità del bronzo prodotto in questo paese è altalenante: la lega è realizzata a partire da filo di rame riciclato, per cui a volte risulta essere ricca di impurità e molto fragile.

Come saprete, i piatti in B20 turco sono molto più suscettibili di rottura rispetto ai piatti in B20 realizzati da Zildjian, Sabian e Ufip.

Io voglio che i miei piatti, oltre a suonare bene, siano anche resistenti. Contrariamente ai piatti di Spizzichino, le mie produzioni non sono destinate solo ai jazzisti ma anche a batteristi che picchiano duro. Devo quindi lavorare con piatti in lega di qualità.

Un piatto costoso, secondo me, non solo deve suonare alla grande ma deve anche essere resistente.

Purtroppo però né la Zildjian né la Sabian né la Ufip vendono piatti grezzi, ma solo piatti finiti. E quindi, se voglio avere bronzo B20 della miglior qualità, devo per forza comprare i piatti di queste ditte. E poiché i loro piatti costano almeno dieci volte quanto i piatti grezzi realizzati in Turchia, i miei margini di guadagno sono minimi.

Ovviamente sono disposto a lavorare qualunque tipo di piatto mi si mandi; ma per le mie produzioni mi affido quasi esclusivamente a Zildjian, Sabian e Ufip.

[Johan VDS]

Thanks Stephen, while reading your translation I have learned some Italian

[Stephen Daedalus]

That's quite all right Bear in mind that it isn't verbatim though. And Italian isn't my first language, so it may sound silly to the native ear

I'm not too happy about piatto grezzo for blank - I think piatto grezzo actually refers to the stage where the cymbal is only missing the hammering and lathing stages, whereas with blank you're referring, I assume, to a round bronze disc with no bell or hole whatsoever.

[TND-storm]

Ciao Stephen, se vedi la pagina di Spizzichino lui usa dei "blank" che in pratica sono dei cerchi di bronzo con già la campana formata, solo che sono deformati attorno alla campana. A forza di martellate arriva pian piano alla forma definitiva.
Un piatto a cui manca la martellatura e la tornitura penso possa essere chiamato "blank".
Facendo riferimento ai filmati che si trovano sulla produzione degli Ufip, chiamerei "blank" proprio i piatti temprati e pronti alla martellatura, cioè nel momento in cui li lavano per togliere la protezione che ci mettono per la tempra finale.

(approximative traduction:)
Hi Stephen, if you look at Spizzichino's web pages you'll see that his blanks already have the bell stamped, but the rest of the cymbal is raw and not shaped yet. Then he hammers the blanks until they reach the right shape.
I think that a cymbal unhammered and unlathed may be called a "blank".
Refferring to the Ufip production videos you can find around, I'd call "blank" the cymbals just after the final tempering and before the hammering, more or less when the wash them to clean the protective material the put on them for the tempering process.


@Johan VDS: great job, as always!
I'm starting to pratice on hammering an lathing, on spare time, just for fun... Don't worry, I'm using the right tools and machinery, and I know how dangerous it is if made in the wrong way...

Ciao
Marco

[Stephen Daedalus]

Babbeo che sono, manco m'è passato per la zucca di guardare sulla pagina di Spizzichino

Grazie Marco!

Anch'io ho messo mano agli attrezzi - ho un vecchio china HiPercussion da 16" che parte bene ma poi non si apre.

[Johan VDS]

..with blank you're referring, I assume, to a round bronze disc with no bell or hole whatsoever.

Turkish blanks already have the cup pressed in with a machine, the rest of the "cymbal" is still unshaped.

[Johan VDS]

But ...sometimes I cut up the bow of a large cymbal into a number of disks.

These disks are more or less flat (they are slightly curved because they were part of the bow.) Then I hammer these small disks (usually they are 6 or 7") entirely into the shape of small cymbals, like splashes, bells, minichina's or unique effects-cymbals. So that also means cold-hammering a cup (which is normally done with a press while the metal is hot). With B20 alloy, cold-hammering a cup is a tricky procedure.
At present, these are basically the only cymbals I really make "from scratch".

I did hammer some large cymbals from turkish blanks in the past, but as I said before, I want to create and sell strong and durable cymbals, and so far Turkish alloy is still too inconsistent in my opinion. But I am constantly on the look out ! If the quality improves I will use them.

[JackIlBlack]

I listen to the solo... a great drummer behind the cymbal's magician.
great work (I'm sorry for my english)

[Johan VDS]

Thank you ! Sorry for my French

[casinara]

The only italian words I know are "spaghetti", "pizza" and "ciao".... sorry !!!

But my cymbals speak a universal language: D

that 's right!
emmm... " spaghetti" and " pizza" are also English words

[gobbetto]

Breviario essenziale ad uso di Johan (Book of hours for Johan consumption).

piatto = Cymbal
martello = Hammer
incudine = Anvil
tornire = Turn on a lathe
lega = Alloy
tonalit? = Pitch
pesante = Heavy
leggero = Light

E adesso la sezione economica (and now the economic section):

soldi = Money
spedizione = Shipping
Purtami 'a lanna, purtami 'a lanna curnutu 'i to' nanna = Please let's complete the transaction quickly and smoothly (palermitan version)

[Broadkaster]

Bellissimo il breviario! Grande gobbetto!

[Johan VDS]

A superb French jazzdrummersent me this very hollow sounding 20" Istanbul Agop Signature. It was (and still is) only 1477 grams and barked more than anything else you can imagine. I didn't take off any weight but I've totally re-hammered and re-shaped it.


Here's a BEFORE AND AFTERclip

[Virgil's secret son [bann]

hi johan,first of all i excuse me if my english is not very well...reading your posts and seeing your solo clip,you looks like an expert..how did you learn to hammer and shape cymbals?i think it's a great thing for a drummer to know how to alterate his own cymbal sound and weight to customize it and make it sound as he really likes...i think you've made a great job with those cymbals you posted..i'd really like to be able to re-shape cymbals just like you!

[hyunkel]

wow potente!!!

[Edward]

Great job!